My name is Jeremiah

[JeremiahGateFan]

I hate Muslims. All who take the Koran as literal truth are evil and must be conquered.

I like chess, anything having to do with intense strategy or complicated puzzles, like risk and indiana jones games.

I am proud to be an American. Bush's words are law until he is removed from office at which time he should be labled an American hero.

The life of one is inconsequencial. What matters is that humanity evolves(not physically, scientifically, spiritually, and philisophically,) and lives forever.

I am a fan of Stargate SG1 as indicated in my name.

I am a ninth grader. Just in case there are any Muslims out there I will not release my city but I live in Virginia.

Hello everyone!

[Mr. Random]

I hate Muslims. All who take the Koran as literal truth are evil and must be conquered.

Just in case there are any Muslims out there I will not release my city but I live in Virginia.

Hello everyone!

Oh... howdy then.

[JeremiahGateFan]

Hello Random, look........I hate muslims because their Koran directly orders them to kill me. I don't discriminate!

[Daniel]

Firstly, I'd like to welcome you to the site. It's good to see a new member.

Secondly, regarding the anti-Muslimness. While you have your right to an opinion - and our views may be mutual - try to keep it a little less direct. You say you don't discriminate, but some may say otherwise.

It's all good though. :p

[Panthrophile]

I hate Muslims. All who take the Koran as literal truth are evil and must be conquered.

I like chess, anything having to do with intense strategy or complicated puzzles, like risk and indiana jones games.

I am proud to be an American. Bush's words are law until he is removed from office at which time he should be labled an American hero.

The life of one is inconsequencial. What matters is that humanity evolves(not physically, scientifically, spiritually, and philisophically,) and lives forever.

I am a fan of Stargate SG1 as indicated in my name.

I am a ninth grader. Just in case there are any Muslims out there I will not release my city but I live in Virginia.

Hello everyone!
You've my contempt.

[Gamefreek_01]

I hate Muslims. All who take the Koran as literal truth are evil and must be conquered.

I like chess, anything having to do with intense strategy or complicated puzzles, like risk and indiana jones games.

I am proud to be an American. Bush's words are law until he is removed from office at which time he should be labled an American hero.

The life of one is inconsequencial. What matters is that humanity evolves(not physically, scientifically, spiritually, and philisophically,) and lives forever.

I am a fan of Stargate SG1 as indicated in my name.

I am a ninth grader. Just in case there are any Muslims out there I will not release my city but I live in Virginia.

Hello everyone!

Welcome to the site. Kudos for Indiana Jones!

[Illuminatus]

It worries me that not only do you define yourself by your hatred of Muslims, but that you do so in your first sentence.

[Jerlene]

I want to smack you. Bush is not a hero! He's stupid, not unlike your views. Welcome to the site.

[StradivariusTV]

Mar-habah!

[Illuminatus]

Elif air ab tizak, kelbeh!

[JeremiahGateFan]

Sry if I offended any Muslims out there however, if you believe that crap about killing all infedels than you might as well be the guy who ran into the pentagon or the twin towers.

[JeremiahGateFan]

I want to smack you. Bush is not a hero! He's stupid, not unlike your views. Welcome to the site.
First of all, it doesn't matter if Bush is a hero. I say he is. You say he's not. What matters is that he is the ruler of this country and he deserves your absolute submission.

[Illuminatus]

A democracy isn't an elected dictatorship.

[Daniel]

First of all, it doesn't matter if Bush is a hero. I say he is. You say he's not. What matters is that he is the ruler of this country and he deserves your absolute submission.

He deserves our respect, not absolute submissions.

However, I strongly suggest we continue this in a different thread perhaps and not in the introductions forum.

[JeremiahGateFan]

However, I strongly suggest we continue this in a different thread perhaps and not in the introductions forum.
how do you change it?

A democracy isn't an elected dictatorship.

Good point, however, we are in a world of tension, just waiting to break into war. When it does, we need fast action, immediate decisions, and we can't wait around for our beurocracy to figure out what to do. When war does break out, The president should have enough power to do what he needs to do to defend America!

[Illuminatus]

Good point, however, we are in a world of tension, just waiting to break into war. When it does, we need fast action, immediate decisions, and we can't wait around for our beurocracy to figure out what to do. When war does break out, The president should have enough power to do what he needs to do to defend America!


He does, but only when it's needed. In a state of national emergency the followng Executive Orders come into play:

Executive Order #10995: Seizure of all communications media in the United States.

Executive Order #10997: Seizure of all electric power fuels and minerals, public and private.

Executive Order #10999: Seizure of all means of transportation, including personal cars, trucks or vehicles of any kind and total control of highways, seaports and waterways.

Executive Order #11000: Seizure of all American people for work forces under federal supervision including the splitting of families if the government finds it necessary.

Executive Order #11001: Seizure of all health, education and welfare facilities, public and private.

Executive Order #11002: Empowered the postmaster general to register all men, women and children in the U.S.

Executive Order #11003: Seizure of all airports and aircraft.

Executive Order #11004: Seizure of all housing and finance authorities to establish Forced Relocation Designated areas to be abandoned as "unsafe."

Executive Order #11005: Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways and storage facilities, public and private.

Executive Order #12919: Signs June 3, 1994, by President Clinton. Encompasses all the above executive orders.

I can't fathom why you think American democracy is about complete and utter submission to one man at all times. That not democracy, thats Fascism.

[JeremiahGateFan]

No, facism is where you believe it is ok to declare war on other nations because you belive that your religion, race, or country is better than theirs. What I meant when I said what I said isn't that you should not question the president's judgement because you should. However, you need to question the president's judgement after you obey his orders.

Basically, all superior orders should be carried out, then questioned.

all self given orders should be quesitioned, then carried out.

all inferiors should question the authority of their leader but be willing to carry out their orders even if to you, they do make since

afterwards, if it turns out that the president is unable to justify his actions, than we should figure something out from there.....

[Krovisser]

Basically, all superior orders should be carried out, then questioned.

This would be different from now... how?

[Illuminatus]

No, facism is where you believe it is ok to declare war on other nations because you belive that your religion, race, or country is better than theirs.

Oh I see, so Fascism is more like saying:


I hate Muslims. All who take the Koran as literal truth are evil and must be conquered.



Give me one reason why not to hate Muslims!


I see, right. So you ARE a fascist.


What I meant when I said what I said isn't that you should not question the president's judgement because you should. However, you need to question the president's judgement after you obey his orders.


If the presidents judgement is sound it should stand up to questioning. There is no need for mindless obedience. Are you saying if the president ordered the disbanding of the senate and supreme court you'd allow it?


Basically, all superior orders should be carried out, then questioned.


The president is answerable to the people, not the other way round. The only people answerable to the president are the armed forces.


all self given orders should be quesitioned, then carried out.

all inferiors should question the authority of their leader but be willing to carry out their orders even if to you, they do make since

afterwards, if it turns out that the president is unable to justify his actions, than we should figure something out from there.....

Yeah, put the jews in the oven. We'll ressurect them later! YEEHAW!

[JeremiahGateFan]

Oh I see, so Fascism is more like saying:
I don't think my religion is better than yours. You think your religion is better than mine. And if you take the Koran literally, you want to kill me. My hate for muslims is a defensive hate, not an aggressive hate.
I see, right. So you ARE a fascist.
I am not a facist, I believe in religous tolerance, unlike your religions which teaches to kill all infedels.
If the presidents judgement is sound it should stand up to questioning. There is no need for mindless obedience. Are you saying if the president ordered the disbanding of the senate and supreme court you'd allow it?
We should not spend our time figuring out the rights and the wrongs while a battle is being lost, either in the economy or in the military. If he deserves the presedintial seat, he deserves immidiate action in responce to his orders.
The president is answerable to the people, not the other way round. The only people answerable to the president are the armed forces.
True, what I'm saying is not that he is not accountable to us, but that there comes a time when someone has to take charge of this nation. If he makes mistakes, he will be accountable to us. Being unwilling to serve the president in a time of emergency is like having a nation with broken arms. When you need decisions fast you need ONE leader. Not a senate.
Yeah, put the jews in the oven. We'll ressurect them later! YEEHAW!
Last I heard we were giving tanks to the jews, not burning them to death.

[JeremiahGateFan]

I am not a facist, I believe in religous tolerance, unlike your religions which teaches to kill all infedels.
Ok, that is a little self defeating. The reason I hate a group of people who believe something is a direct result of the fact that they hate me. I don't mind any other religous group. I am fond of Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, and Jews. I don't believe Christians are better, even if they are right.

[Illuminatus]

I don't think my religion is better than yours.

Oh?


I hate Muslims.


Hate your own religion too, do you?


You think your religion is better than mine.


Don't tell me what I think, little boy.


And if you take the Koran literally, you want to kill me. My hate for muslims is a defensive hate, not an aggressive hate.

No-one takes their religious books literally, otherwise all Christians would be walking around with beards. Stop trying to rationalise your hatred.


I am not a facist, I believe in religous tolerance, unlike your religions which teaches to kill all infedels.


Oh?


I hate Muslims.


Hate is tolerance now is it?


We should not spend our time figuring out the rights and the wrongs while a battle is being lost, either in the economy or in the military. If he deserves the presedintial seat, he deserves immidiate action in responce to his orders.


If the presidents judgement is sound it should stand up to questioning. There is no need for mindless obedience. Are you saying if the president ordered the disbanding of the senate and supreme court you'd allow it?


True, what I'm saying is not that he is not accountable to us, but that there comes a time when someone has to take charge of this nation. If he makes mistakes, he will be accountable to us. Being unwilling to serve the president in a time of emergency is like having a nation with broken arms. When you need decisions fast you need ONE leader. Not a senate.


If that's your attitude you're in the wrong country, you're not a conservative American, you're a Fascist. You'd have been more at home in pre-war Iraq. Republican? You don't even know what a republic is.


Last I heard we were giving tanks to the jews, not burning them to death.

Seems like my analogy was too clever for you.

[Illuminatus]

Ok, that is a little self defeating. The reason I hate a group of people who believe something is a direct result of the fact that they hate me. I don't mind any other religous group. I am fond of Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, and Jews. I don't believe Christians are better, even if they are right.

Large amounts of people from every religion hate you.

[JeremiahGateFan]

Oh?
Hate your own religion too, do you?
I didn't say I hated Islam, I said I hated Muslims who take the Koran literally

Don't tell me what I think, little boy.
First of all, I'm not a little boy. Second of all, maybe YOU don't take your religion seriously enough to believe that, but alot of Muslims do, hence 911.

No-one takes their religious books literally, otherwise all Christians would be walking around with beards. Stop trying to rationalise your hatred.
The bible doesn't say anything good about beards. And Christians don't try to look like Jesus.

Oh?
Hate is tolerance now is it?
Hate is tolerance now is it?
I tolerate any belief that is not an aggresive belief.

If that's your attitude you're in the wrong country, you're not a conservative American, you're a Fascist. You'd have been more at home in pre-war Iraq. Republican? You don't even know what a republic is.

I know that it is necessary in a time of war to have quick decisions. These cannot be provided by senate. I am a conservative American, I believe in democracy just not when fast decisions are necessary for survival. Survival ranks above Individual Priveledges. And HOW would I do better in IRAQ with all those Muslims!

Large amounts of people from every religion hate you.
You don't even know who I am. Large amounts of people from every religion don't even know me!

[JeremiahGateFan]

And ALSO. My entire church takes the entire bible literally!

[Illuminatus]

I didn't say I hated Islam, I said I hated Muslims who take the Koran literally


No, you said you hated muslims. You also PM'ed me asking for a reason why you shouldn't hate me. I never mentioned whether I took the Koran literally or not.


First of all, I'm not a little boy. Second of all, maybe YOU don't take your religion seriously enough to believe that, but alot of Muslims do, hence 911.


Firstly, yes you are. Secondly, 911 was not a result of people believing too strongly in Islam. It was a product of many many factors. You really think 911 was because Alqaeda 'hates your freedom' ?


The bible doesn't say anything good about beards. And Christians don't try to look like Jesus.


Go read Leviticus.


I tolerate any belief that is not an aggresive belief.


You make the assumption that all muslims are agressive as an excuse for your intolerance.


I know that it is necessary in a time of war to have quick decisions. These cannot be provided by senate. I am a conservative American, I believe in democracy just not when fast decisions are necessary for survival. Survival ranks above Individual Priveledges. And HOW would I do better in IRAQ with all those Muslims!


No, quick decisions are not necessary. The right decisions are, and your chances at survival are pretty low if you don't use your brain and actually think about what you're doing. If war is anything like you like pretending it is then one bad decision and it's lost. The US has never even been in such a position and it's unlikely that it ever will.

It's funny have you've gone from 'complete submission at all times' to 'carrying out orders quickly in a hypothetical war/emergency situation'.


You don't even know who I am. Large amounts of people from every religion don't even know me!

Think about what you've just said.

[Illuminatus]

And ALSO. My entire church takes the entire bible literally!

Yeah right, because they all avoid touching their wives when they're on their periods :rolleyes:

[JeremiahGateFan]

No, you said you hated muslims. You also PM'ed me asking for a reason why you shouldn't hate me. I never mentioned whether I took the Koran literally or not.
Ok, let me rephrase my previous statement. I hate those who take the Koran seriously. If you don't take it seriously, then I have nothing against your beliefs (that I know of).

Firstly, yes you are. Secondly, 911 was not a result of people believing too strongly in Islam. It was a product of many many factors. You really think 911 was because Alqaeda 'hates your freedom' ?

No I'm not. Yes, I do believe it is a result of them believing too strongly in their religion. Maybe that's naive but as far as I know, that's it. I don't think they hate my freedom, I think they hate my "infedelity."

Go read Leviticus.
Too-shay, I have read the new testament but I have only read Genisis in old testament.

You make the assumption that all muslims are agressive as an excuse for your intolerance.

Well do you ever watch TV, like, ever. I mean, I know you shouldn't believe most of what you see but every Muslim I've ever seen on TV (aside from that General who worked for Sadaum's Airforce) were aggressive. Maybe it is stereotypical to assume that every one of them is war mongering, but war is appart of the Koran, so you can only make assumptions based on what you see.

No, quick decisions are not necessary. The right decisions are, and your chances at survival are pretty low if you don't use your brain and actually think about what you're doing. If war is anything like you like pretending it is then one bad decision and it's lost. The US has never even been in such a position and it's unlikely that it ever will.

A. The mind of any Military Leader has to move just as fast as his troops. Obviiously, the more thought you put in to the ethical and strategic sides of the argument, the better the decision will be. However, depending on what's happening and how close the enemy is to home, sometimes there is not enough time to get everyone's opinions on the matter. It's like if your in a fist fight. If you sit around thinking about what to do, your gonna get hit. If you let your addrenaline take control, you might make some lousy decisions, but, in most emergency situations, indecision can be deadly.

B. You over-estimate America. You assume that we will always be the strongest empire. What happened to Rome, India, Russia, Germany, Great Britain, Persia, and Greece. All of them were at one time the Greatest Military power in the world. Every empire rises and falls it is the fate of everything. One day, we will have the emergecy situation, I only hope that we will deal with it well enough to live a few more centuries.

Think about what you've just said.
Ok I started with:Ok, that is a little self defeating. The reason I hate a group of people who believe something is a direct result of the fact that they hate me. I don't mind any other religous group. I am fond of Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, and Jews. I don't believe Christians are better, even if they are right.
Then you said:Large amounts of people from every religion hate you.
Then I said:You don't even know who I am. Large amounts of people from every religion don't even know me!
I said that it is impossible for large amounts of people to hate me from every religion because I do not know large amounts of people from every religion.

Yeah right, because they all avoid touching their wives when they're on their periods

This is a very simple matter. Laws concerning, germs in bacon, poop, blood, and etc. were laws made for people who were to primitive to practice or even know about sanitation. They believe everything in the bible, but they recognize that some laws were meant for the original Hebrews, not the technologically advanced people of today.

[JeremiahGateFan]

and in addition to the infedility part, 40 virgins is also what their after.

[Illuminatus]

Ok, let me rephrase my previous statement. I hate those who take the Koran seriously. If you don't take it seriously, then I have nothing against your beliefs (that I know of).

All Muslims take the Koran seriously, yet like practically every religion no-one follows 100% of their holy book's commandments.


No I'm not. Yes, I do believe it is a result of them believing too strongly in their religion. Maybe that's naive but as far as I know, that's it. I don't think they hate my freedom, I think they hate my "infedelity."


Yes, it's ridiculously naive. Osama has publically stated his reasons for attacking the towers:


So I shall talk to you about the story behind those events and shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the decision was taken, for you to consider.

I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.

The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.

The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond.

In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.

And that day, it was confirmed to me that oppression and the intentional killing of innocent women and children is a deliberate American policy. Destruction is freedom and democracy, while resistance is terrorism and intolerance.

This means the oppressing and embargoing to death of millions as Bush Sr did in Iraq in the greatest mass slaughter of children mankind has ever known, and it means the throwing of millions of pounds of bombs and explosives at millions of children - also in Iraq - as Bush Jr did, in order to remove an old agent and replace him with a new puppet to assist in the pilfering of Iraq's oil and other outrages.

So with these images and their like as their background, the events of September 11th came as a reply to those great wrongs, should a man be blamed for defending his sanctuary?

Is defending oneself and punishing the aggressor in kind, objectionable terrorism? If it is such, then it is unavoidable for us.

This is the message which I sought to communicate to you in word and deed, repeatedly, for years before September 11th.

And you can read this, if you wish, in my interview with Scott in Time Magazine in 1996, or with Peter Arnett on CNN in 1997, or my meeting with John Weiner in 1998.

You can observe it practically, if you wish, in Kenya and Tanzania and in Aden. And you can read it in my interview with Abdul Bari Atwan, as well as my interviews with Robert Fisk.

The latter is one of your compatriots and co-religionists and I consider him to be neutral. So are the pretenders of freedom at the White House and the channels controlled by them able to run an interview with him? So that he may relay to the American people what he has understood from us to be the reasons for our fight against you?

If you were to avoid these reasons, you will have taken the correct path that will lead America to the security that it was in before September 11th. This concerned the causes of the war.

As for it's results, they have been, by the grace of Allah, positive and enormous, and have, by all standards, exceeded all expectations. This is due to many factors, chief among them, that we have found it difficult to deal with the Bush administration in light of the resemblance it bears to the regimes in our countries, half of which are ruled by the military and the other half which are ruled by the sons of kings and presidents.

Our experience with them is lengthy, and both types are replete with those who are characterised by pride, arrogance, greed and misappropriation of wealth. This resemblance began after the visits of Bush Sr to the region.

At a time when some of our compatriots were dazzled by America and hoping that these visits would have an effect on our countries, all of a sudden he was affected by those monarchies and military regimes, and became envious of their remaining decades in their positions, to embezzle the public wealth of the nation without supervision or accounting.

So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son and they named it the Patriot Act, under the pretence of fighting terrorism. In addition, Bush sanctioned the installing of sons as state governors, and didn't forget to import expertise in election fraud from the region's presidents to Florida to be made use of in moments of difficulty.

All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two mujahidin to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaida, in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits for their private companies.

This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahidin, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.

All Praise is due to Allah.

So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah.

That being said, those who say that al-Qaida has won against the administration in the White House or that the administration has lost in this war have not been precise, because when one scrutinises the results, one cannot say that al-Qaida is the sole factor in achieving those spectacular gains.

Rather, the policy of the White House that demands the opening of war fronts to keep busy their various corporations - whether they be working in the field of arms or oil or reconstruction - has helped al-Qaida to achieve these enormous results.

And so it has appeared to some analysts and diplomats that the White House and us are playing as one team towards the economic goals of the United States, even if the intentions differ.


Continued...

[Illuminatus]

And it was to these sorts of notions and their like that the British diplomat and others were referring in their lectures at the Royal Institute of International Affairs. [When they pointed out that] for example, al-Qaida spent $500,000 on the event, while America, in the incident and its aftermath, lost - according to the lowest estimate - more than $500 billion.

Meaning that every dollar of al-Qaida defeated a million dollars by the permission of Allah, besides the loss of a huge number of jobs.

As for the size of the economic deficit, it has reached record astronomical numbers estimated to total more than a trillion dollars.

And even more dangerous and bitter for America is that the mujahidin recently forced Bush to resort to emergency funds to continue the fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, which is evidence of the success of the bleed-until-bankruptcy plan - with Allah's permission.

It is true that this shows that al-Qaida has gained, but on the other hand, it shows that the Bush administration has also gained, something of which anyone who looks at the size of the contracts acquired by the shady Bush administration-linked mega-corporations, like Halliburton and its kind, will be convinced. And it all shows that the real loser is ... you.

It is the American people and their economy. And for the record, we had agreed with the Commander-General Muhammad Ataa, Allah have mercy on him, that all the operations should be carried out within 20 minutes, before Bush and his administration notice.

It never occurred to us that the commander-in-chief of the American armed forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers to face those great horrors alone, the time when they most needed him.

But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers, we were given three times the period required to execute the operations - all praise is due to Allah.

And it's no secret to you that the thinkers and perceptive ones from among the Americans warned Bush before the war and told him: "All that you want for securing America and removing the weapons of mass destruction - assuming they exist - is available to you, and the nations of the world are with you in the inspections, and it is in the interest of America that it not be thrust into an unjustified war with an unknown outcome."

But the darkness of the black gold blurred his vision and insight, and he gave priority to private interests over the public interests of America.

So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy bled, and Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his future. He fits the saying "like the naughty she-goat who used her hoof to dig up a knife from under the earth".

So I say to you, over 15,000 of our people have been killed and tens of thousands injured, while more than a thousand of you have been killed and more than 10,000 injured. And Bush's hands are stained with the blood of all those killed from both sides, all for the sake of oil and keeping their private companies in business.

Be aware that it is the nation who punishes the weak man when he causes the killing of one of its citizens for money, while letting the powerful one get off, when he causes the killing of more than 1000 of its sons, also for money.

And the same goes for your allies in Palestine. They terrorise the women and children, and kill and capture the men as they lie sleeping with their families on the mattresses, that you may recall that for every action, there is a reaction.

Finally, it behoves you to reflect on the last wills and testaments of the thousands who left you on the 11th as they gestured in despair. They are important testaments, which should be studied and researched.

Among the most important of what I read in them was some prose in their gestures before the collapse, where they say: "How mistaken we were to have allowed the White House to implement its aggressive foreign policies against the weak without supervision."

It is as if they were telling you, the people of America: "Hold to account those who have caused us to be killed, and happy is he who learns from others' mistakes."

And among that which I read in their gestures is a verse of poetry. "Injustice chases its people, and how unhealthy the bed of tyranny."

As has been said: "An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure."

And know that: "It is better to return to the truth than persist in error." And that the wise man doesn't squander his security, wealth and children for the sake of the liar in the White House.

In conclusion, I tell you in truth, that your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaida. No.

Your security is in your own hands. And every state that doesn't play with our security has automatically guaranteed its own security.

And Allah is our Guardian and Helper, while you have no Guardian or Helper. All peace be upon he who follows the Guidance.



Well do you ever watch TV, like, ever. I mean, I know you shouldn't believe most of what you see but every Muslim I've ever seen on TV (aside from that General who worked for Sadaum's Airforce) were aggressive. Maybe it is stereotypical to assume that every one of them is war mongering, but war is appart of the Koran, so you can only make assumptions based on what you see.


A few Muslims on TV are not representative of the whole, especially when you consider the reasons why they're on TV in the first place.


A. The mind of any Military Leader has to move just as fast as his troops. Obviiously, the more thought you put in to the ethical and strategic sides of the argument, the better the decision will be. However, depending on what's happening and how close the enemy is to home, sometimes there is not enough time to get everyone's opinions on the matter. It's like if your in a fist fight. If you sit around thinking about what to do, your gonna get hit. If you let your addrenaline take control, you might make some lousy decisions, but, in most emergency situations, indecision can be deadly.


The president isn't a military leader, he's not a general or a field marshall. His opinion is frankly worthless on matters of strategy. There is no emergency situation; there is ample time for consideration of action.


B. You over-estimate America. You assume that we will always be the strongest empire. What happened to Rome, India, Russia, Germany, Great Britain, Persia, and Greece. All of them were at one time the Greatest Military power in the world. Every empire rises and falls it is the fate of everything. One day, we will have the emergecy situation, I only hope that we will deal with it well enough to live a few more centuries.


No, I assume your presidents won't be stupid enough to allow America to get in such a state. Still, what a hypothetical situation that's centuries away or may not even happen has to do with blind obedience to the president right now I don't know.


Ok I started with:
Then you said:
Then I said:
I said that it is impossible for large amounts of people to hate me from every religion because I do not know large amounts of people from every religion.


Including Islam.


This is a very simple matter. Laws concerning, germs in bacon, poop, blood, and etc. were laws made for people who were to primitive to practice or even know about sanitation. They believe everything in the bible, but they recognize that some laws were meant for the original Hebrews, not the technologically advanced people of today.

There are plenty other laws a rules of a non hygenic nature in Deuteronomy and such. Do they stone their children and steal their enemies women for wives too? No-one better be seen worshipping any Canannite gods, they'd have to kill them....

[JeremiahGateFan]

well.....I will respond to that in an hour or less but I have to take care of something first.....By the way, while I am off, write me a list of the sources for those statements if you don't mind, aside from the opinion ones of course....

[JeremiahGateFan]

All Muslims take the Koran seriously, yet like practically every religion no-one follows 100% of their holy book's commandments.

Ok that seemed a little self defeating. You've built large portions of your argument on the fact that I was stereotypical when I said all Muslims take the Koran seriously. The Koran inspires hate for infedels. Anyone who believes it has ample reasons to blow up my house. I will fight against anyone who threatens me or my family. And that's just what the Koran does.

There are plenty other laws a rules of a non hygenic nature in Deuteronomy and such. Do they stone their children and steal their enemies women for wives too? No-one better be seen worshipping any Canannite gods, they'd have to kill them....

The bible also says to obey the law of the land. We do not live in a Puritan society. We live in a secular society. The idea is to attract people to Christianity, not to scare them away. In an all Christian nation, maybe that would be appropriate, but not in a secular country where children are always being tempted.

In responce to all that stuff. I'm still waiting for a bibliography. I want to know if thats a bunch of BS or not so I'm gonna find the sources. Anyway, assuming that it is all correct. OK, I was ridiculously naive, they felt they were backed into a corner and they fought back. But look at your signiture. To over come evil by good is good but to resist evil by evil is evil. Weren't they sining. They were using terror and fear as a weapon more than anything else.

A few Muslims on TV are not representative of the whole, especially when you consider the reasons why they're on TV in the first place.

Well if all muslims take the Koran literally than it doesn't matter. They still ultimately desire to rule the world in the name of allah.

The president isn't a military leader, he's not a general or a field marshall. His opinion is frankly worthless on matters of strategy. There is no emergency situation; there is ample time for consideration of action.

True, but he is our commander and chief. Depending on the actual situation strategic decisions would probably fall to someone else. However, he will be the one to grant that authority when the time comes.

No, I assume your presidents won't be stupid enough to allow America to get in such a state. Still, what a hypothetical situation that's centuries away or may not even happen has to do with blind obedience to the president right now I don't know.

All empires fall, regardless of how long they have stood or how strong they are. And America's fate will be the same. It could be centuries and it could be years. For instance, if there were a massive anti-american uprising in the nations where we get our oil than we would be very prone to die.

Including Islam

I was refering to me catagorized with the what Islamics consider to be Infedels.

[Illuminatus]

Ok that seemed a little self defeating. You've built large portions of your argument on the fact that I was stereotypical when I said all Muslims take the Koran seriously.


No, I've built large portions of my argument on your admitted blind hatred of muslims based on your assumption that we take our holy books 100% literally even though you hypocritically refuse to acknowledge that virtually no members of any religion do.


The Koran inspires hate for infedels. Anyone who believes it has ample reasons to blow up my house. I will fight against anyone who threatens me or my family. And that's just what the Koran does.


The Koran is merely a book.


The bible also says to obey the law of the land. We do not live in a Puritan society. We live in a secular society. The idea is to attract people to Christianity, not to scare them away. In an all Christian nation, maybe that would be appropriate, but not in a secular country where children are always being tempted.


The Koran explicity states the exact same thing.


In responce to all that stuff. I'm still waiting for a bibliography. I want to know if thats a bunch of BS or not so I'm gonna find the sources. Anyway, assuming that it is all correct. OK, I was ridiculously naive, they felt they were backed into a corner and they fought back. But look at your signiture. To over come evil by good is good but to resist evil by evil is evil. Weren't they sining. They were using terror and fear as a weapon more than anything else.


I'm not creating a biblography, that's not my speech. But those are the supplied reasons for 9/11.


Well if all muslims take the Koran literally than it doesn't matter. They still ultimately desire to rule the world in the name of allah.


No, they don't. There you go again making assumptions about Islam which you do not apply to other religions. Your whole argument against Islam is the false assumption we all follow the Koran 100%.


True, but he is our commander and chief. Depending on the actual situation strategic decisions would probably fall to someone else. However, he will be the one to grant that authority when the time comes.


No he won't, in a state of emergency generals will no doubt be acting of their own accord, considering they know best.


All empires fall, regardless of how long they have stood or how strong they are. And America's fate will be the same. It could be centuries and it could be years. For instance, if there were a massive anti-american uprising in the nations where we get our oil than we would be very prone to die.


America isn't an empire. Britain lost it's empire, but it Britian itself was never in any sort of 'state of desperate emergency' that required split-second decisions.


I was refering to me catagorized with the what Islamics consider to be Infedels.

You are an infidel, much in the way Christians think we're all sinners who are going to burn in hell.

[JeremiahGateFan]

No, I've built large portions of my argument on your admitted blind hatred of muslims based on your assumption that we take our holy books 100% literally even though you hypocritically refuse to acknowledge that virtually no members of any religion do.

WHAT IS IT? Do Muslims believe the Koran or don't they. Is my belief that Muslims believe the entire Koran merely a belief or is it a fact? Maybe I don't know for sure whether Muslims believe the entire Koran but You seem to play from both sides. DO THEY OR DON'T THEY?

The Koran is merely a book.

See? See? RIGHT THERE The Koran is merely A book Your acting like its wrong for me to make the assumption that all Muslims take the Koran literally (maybe it is but this isn't against that argument). You say, all Muslims take the Koran literally and you say the Koran is merely a book. Have some backbone. I'de rather die standing for something than live standing for nothing.

The Koran explicity states the exact same thing.

The law of the land only extends within that nation. A Iranian is not subject to American laws therefore it is not against their laws to bomb the US. This is more true especially in theocracies where it is legal to kill certain people for Allah.

I'm not creating a biblography, that's not my speech. But those are the supplied reasons for 9/11.

Exactly, but it is your post. You took the info from someone else and I want to know if it is a reliable source( don't tell me if it is, just give me a website, the name of the channel that said it, or even a text such as books or articles).

No, they don't. There you go again making assumptions about Islam which you do not apply to other religions. Your whole argument against Islam is the false assumption we all follow the Koran 100%.

AGAIN, DO THEY OR DON'T THEY FOLLOW THE KORAN 100%! Is it merely a belief or is it a fact? I'm sure there are some who are not devout, especially in America and other nations where they arn't completely surrounded by Muslims however I'm talking about mainly Arabs. I'm sure some call themselves Muslims but simply believe some of the ideas that Muslim teaches. There are people Like that for every religion.

No he won't, in a state of emergency generals will no doubt be acting of their own accord, considering they know best.

OK, techinically, America is a Democracy. I will give you that. Yes however, much of the world is growing to hate Americans more and more each day, therefore, it is reasonable to assume that either America will drastically change its foreign policies to boot licking or we will go down fighting. And when I say " boot licking". I don't think we're ever going to have to pay tribute or anything ridiculous like that. But I think we might have to take a few more kicks in the balls and just simply suck it up, otherwise, the world will view us as aggressive and use propagand to create an anti-america coalition.

You are an infidel, much in the way Christians think we're all sinners who are going to burn in hell.

THANK YOU, for once your not being elusive. The bible doesn't say to kill or hate. Keep in mind, I'm not a Christian. The bible says to love your neighbor and to pray for your enemies. The most important commandment in the entire bible as it is labled by Jesus himself is, "Love one another as you love yourselves that people may recognize by your love." The bible is a book of love. The Koran inspires killing. These are the verses.
44Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:30And Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.31ANd the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Ok, it wasn't the greatest, instead it was the second greatest. But as a fool can see, Christianity is a message of Love. And The Koran teaches to kill. Maybe you find that God is more likey to devalue the life of a human being enough to recommend murder. But as for me, I like the idea of a God who values your life just as much as mine and considers you and me lost to him. So much, that he would die on a cross in the most inhumane way to save us. And more than that, to dispatch missionaries to every possible country in an attempt to rescue our doomed souls. If God ever reveals himself to me. I would hope that he would tell me not to kill my neighbor, but to guide him. And that's christianity.

[Krovisser]

The bible doesn't say to kill or hate

God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel."
Exodus 11:7

Whoever works, or even kindles a fire, on the Sabbath "shall be put to death." 35:2-3

After a woman gives birth, a priest must kill a lamb, pigeon, or dove as a sin offering. This is because having children is sinful and God likes it when things are killed for him. Leviticus 12:6-8

Both parties in adultery shall be executed. 20:10

If a man has sex with his father's wife, kill them both. 20:11

If a man "lies" with his daughter-in-law, then both must be killed. 20:12

If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. 20:13

Also, it hints at killing people of other faiths: Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

[JeremiahGateFan]

A. All of these except the first one refer to killing within a group. It doesn't say, ever, to go kill someone in another land because you don't like their religion.
B. As for the top one, he is not telling anyone to kill. He himself is doing it. Of course God kills.
C. And yes, of course God commanded armies. But I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking about the future, or the NOW. Muslims want to kill us NOW.

[JeremiahGateFan]

And also, I was refering to the General Message. When God orders killings, he is talking about a specific event. Not as a policy towards nonbelievers. Which is exactly what Islam does.

[Illuminatus]

WHAT IS IT? Do Muslims believe the Koran or don't they. Is my belief that Muslims believe the entire Koran merely a belief or is it a fact? Maybe I don't know for sure whether Muslims believe the entire Koran but You seem to play from both sides. DO THEY OR DON'T THEY?

No-one takes their religious books literally, otherwise all Christians would be walking around with beards. All Muslims take the Koran seriously, yet like practically every religion no-one follows 100% of their holy book's commandments and rules.

You don't seem to able to grasp that 'Muslims' are not one singular group of people with the exact same views. Much like some Christians feel it's perfectly acceptable to blow up abortion clinics and others do not.

The answer to your question is NEITHER. Fundamentalists do, moderates do not.


See? See? RIGHT THERE The Koran is merely A book


It is merely a book. The Koran is not responsible for people blowing things up, people are responsible for their own actions.


Your acting like its wrong for me to make the assumption that all Muslims take the Koran literally (maybe it is but this isn't against that argument).


It is wrong because not all of them do take the entire thing as 100% literal truth to be followed to the letter. Christians do not stone rebellious children.


You say, all Muslims take the Koran literally and you say the Koran is merely a book. Have some backbone. I'de rather die standing for something than live standing for nothing.


No, I don't say that at all. I've been saying the opposite.

My statement that the koran is merely a book was in response to you implying the Koran is an excuse for people trying to blow up your house.


The law of the land only extends within that nation. A Iranian is not subject to American laws therefore it is not against their laws to bomb the US. This is more true especially in theocracies where it is legal to kill certain people for Allah.


What's your point? It's not against American laws to bomb Iran either. What's this got to do anything?


Exactly, but it is your post. You took the info from someone else and I want to know if it is a reliable source( don't tell me if it is, just give me a website, the name of the channel that said it, or even a text such as books or articles).


Aljazeera. It's a speech by Osama Bin Laden. Those are his supplied reasons for 9/11, not your assumed 'because we're infidels'.


AGAIN, DO THEY OR DON'T THEY FOLLOW THE KORAN 100%! Is it merely a belief or is it a fact? I'm sure there are some who are not devout, especially in America and other nations where they arn't completely surrounded by Muslims however I'm talking about mainly Arabs. I'm sure some call themselves Muslims but simply believe some of the ideas that Muslim teaches. There are people Like that for every religion.


Exactly. So don't stereotype. Fundamentalists are a minor faction. Interesting how you single out arabs...are you a racist too?


OK, techinically, America is a Democracy. I will give you that. Yes however, much of the world is growing to hate Americans more and more each day, therefore, it is reasonable to assume that either America will drastically change its foreign policies to boot licking or we will go down fighting. And when I say " boot licking". I don't think we're ever going to have to pay tribute or anything ridiculous like that. But I think we might have to take a few more kicks in the balls and just simply suck it up, otherwise, the world will view us as aggressive and use propagand to create an anti-america coalition.


Maybe.


THANK YOU, for once your not being elusive. The bible doesn't say to kill or hate. Keep in mind, I'm not a Christian. The bible says to love your neighbor and to pray for your enemies. The most important commandment in the entire bible as it is labled by Jesus himself is, "Love one another as you love yourselves that people may recognize by your love." The bible is a book of love. The Koran inspires killing. These are the verses.

Ok, it wasn't the greatest, instead it was the second greatest. But as a fool can see, Christianity is a message of Love. And The Koran teaches to kill. Maybe you find that God is more likey to devalue the life of a human being enough to recommend murder. But as for me, I like the idea of a God who values your life just as much as mine and considers you and me lost to him. So much, that he would die on a cross in the most inhumane way to save us. And more than that, to dispatch missionaries to every possible country in an attempt to rescue our doomed souls. If God ever reveals himself to me. I would hope that he would tell me not to kill my neighbor, but to guide him. And that's christianity.

The bible has many examples of God callng for genocide and rape. Even Jesus calls for genocide and threatens cities. The Bible is no better than the Koran in that respect. Islam is a religion of peace and compassion as much as Christianity, the violence from my Muslim brothers comes not from Islam, but from the USA's policy towards the middle east.

[JeremiahGateFan]

You don't seem to able to grasp that 'Muslims' are not one singular group of people with the exact same views. Much like some Christians feel it's perfectly acceptable to blow up abortion clinics and others do not.

The answer to your question is NEITHER. Fundamentalists do, moderates do not.

Ok, so they all believe the teachings but only the fundamentalists practice them 100%. Got it.

It is merely a book. The Koran is not responsible for people blowing things up, people are responsible for their own actions.

Yes, however, as is said in modern philosophy, all actions flow from belief. It can be belief about happiness, what's right, or many others but all action flows from belief and many Muslims strongly believe the Koran. Of course their responcible. A fool is responcible for his inablility to scutinize his beliefs to the point where he only believes those that are rational.

It is wrong because not all of them do take the entire thing as 100% literal truth to be followed to the letter. Christians do not stone rebellious children.

Well, as I said earlier, we live in a different manner of society. Stoning children just wouldn't work.

No, I don't say that at all. I've been saying the opposite.

My statement that the koran is merely a book was in response to you implying the Koran is an excuse for people trying to blow up your house.

Ok, yeah I already adressed that.

What's your point? It's not against American laws to bomb Iran either. What's this got to do anything?

Ummmmmm......yes it is...... If Bush blew up a house in Iran we would attempt to disown his actions. So yes....it is.

Aljazeera. It's a speech by Osama Bin Laden. Those are his supplied reasons for 9/11, not your assumed 'because we're infidels'.

OK, I assume that A word is a news or something. Ow well, propaganda can be produced by anyone. Maybe that's how he sleeps at night but what he did was still evil. By the way, he just proved that force doesn't work. If he's aggressively trying to destroy America's economy. OK, but if he is trying to preserve his way of life, he is stupid. He only made us more agressive and created pro war songs like"where were you when the world stopped turning".

Exactly. So don't stereotype. Fundamentalists are a minor faction. Interesting how you single out arabs...are you a racist too?

Firstly, as I was telling one of my friends to day. I have only one group of people in the entire world that I don't like. They are the Muslims. I "single out" Arabs simply because it is in that area of the world that Islam is dominant. And of course their working on France.

Secondly, yeah, Ok, it is one of those things. It is easier to categorize than to figure things out for each individual situation. This is especially true in our crappy legal system, and I have experienced it. Not good, stereotypes I mean. However, I think my original statements can still rationally stand for those who take the commandment"kill all infedels" literally.

[JeremiahGateFan]

The bible has many examples of God callng for genocide and rape. Even Jesus calls for genocide and threatens cities. The Bible is no better than the Koran in that respect. Islam is a religion of peace and compassion as much as Christianity, the violence from my Muslim brothers comes not from Islam, but from the USA's policy towards the middle east.

As I was telling Kros, it is onlly for specific things, not as a general policy towards nonbelievers. Therefore the bible's message is peaceful, but it does give examples of win God ordered killing and raping. Basically though, the only time your supposed to kill in our religion is if God tells you to do so himself. The only way I'de kill someone for God would be if I was 100% sure that I heard God, I wouldn't play around with someones life. The Koran Does leave it open for interpretation therefore people who take it seriously can justify their actions by it.

[JeremiahGateFan]

Ok, I just re read my post, that part about saying the opposite. Ummmmm....I think I copied and pasted one too many times. Disregard that line of text.

[Daniel]

God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel."
Exodus 11:7

Whoever works, or even kindles a fire, on the Sabbath "shall be put to death." 35:2-3

After a woman gives birth, a priest must kill a lamb, pigeon, or dove as a sin offering. This is because having children is sinful and God likes it when things are killed for him. Leviticus 12:6-8

Both parties in adultery shall be executed. 20:10

If a man has sex with his father's wife, kill them both. 20:11

If a man "lies" with his daughter-in-law, then both must be killed. 20:12

If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. 20:13

Also, it hints at killing people of other faiths: Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

I feel the need to comment on this. As said, in some of the above situations it is God killing, and not commanding us to kill anyone. In the majority of the scripture you quoted.

Secondly, that is the old law set down by Moses. It was to create a standard of morals. It is no longer applicable to my understanding after the events in Jesus' life.

Thirdly, as said, it said to kill in ceartain situations. It does not say to kill based on faith or ethnicity.

[Krovisser]

I feel the need to comment on this. As said, in some of the above situations it is God killing, and not commanding us to kill anyone. In the majority of the scripture you quoted.

Secondly, that is the old law set down by Moses. It was to create a standard of morals. It is no longer applicable to my understanding after the events in Jesus' life.

Thirdly, as said, it said to kill in ceartain situations. It does not say to kill based on faith or ethnicity.

Accepted, what about:

Deuteronomy 12:30
Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

Or is this up for "interpretation"?

[Daniel]

Accepted, what about:

Deuteronomy 12:30
Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

Or is this up for "interpretation"?

Honestly I would say interpretation. I'd have to read the surrounding context. Secondly, I believe this passage is reffering to God destroying other faiths, not Christians, is it not?

[Illuminatus]

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. Leviticus 20:27

Murder all spiritualists?

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. Zechariah 13:3

Murder prophets?

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. Leviticus 24:15-16

Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' Exodus 31:12-15

[JeremiahGateFan]

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. Leviticus 20:27

Murder all spiritualists?

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. Zechariah 13:3

Murder prophets?

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. Leviticus 24:15-16

Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' Exodus 31:12-15

All of these fall into the catogory that Lpspider was speaking of. They are all in the Torah.

[Illuminatus]

Irrelevant.

Either way it supports my argument.

[StradivariusTV]

All of these fall into the catogory that Lpspider was speaking of. They are all in the Torah.Yes, and the same five books of the Torah happen to appear in your Bible as well. So this:
And ALSO. My entire church takes the entire bible literally!
is a lie.

[JeremiahGateFan]

This is a completely hypothetical situation that could represent similar situations in reality. There are 2 islands. On each island, there are 2 families; one with guns and one unarmed. On island A, the armed family is Christian and on island B, the armed family is Muslim. Christianity teaches that loving your neighbor is the second greatest commandment, but it calls Christians to spread the gospel message with love for everyone. Therefore, it is also rational for them to share the gospel with the Muslims. Even if the dominant family for them to share the gospel with the Muslims. Even if the dominant family believes all of the bible, there is no reason to kill the Muslims but there is plenty of reason to love and try to save them.

Now to island B; The Muslim family is dominant. They are commanded by their Koran to kill the christian family. There are 3 possibilities.
A. Their fanatical about their Koran and murder the Christian family.
B. They Don't take the Koran literally, they believe that Mohammuds teaching was either fallible, or exagerrated. If that's the case they don't deserve to be called Muslims. In the same way, you are usually not considered a Christian if you think the Holy Book is not entirely true. General Christian theologie says you have to have a relationship with Jesus, where he answers your prayers, he teaches you, and you pray and learn.
C. They do not believe it is necessary to fulfill all of the Lord's commandments. If that's the case, how little instigation would it take. If there's no moral or legal problem, the only problem lift is whether or not the Muslims like the Christians. They could justify their murder. Therefore, the fragile relationship between the Muslims and the Christians would be the only deterent to murder.

That is my main problem with Islam. In all other religions there is a moral reason not to blow up my house. Those who care more about doing what's reight than coping with society will try and kill infedels. Islam puts no value at all on the life of a non-mualim. That makes Muslims extremely vulnerable to rebellions and uprisings.

Snd what do you say about these cartoons with Mohammed. Are you in support of your "brothers" who kill and blow stuff up because of Danish expression of free speech. Keep in mind that that Copen Hagen's Cotton Herring did not write that cartoon anyway.

In christianity, you and I are more valuable than an entire chruch of believers. In Islam, I am valueless and so is most of the world.

You say it is wrong of me to stereo type muslims but after close examination, it is not. ALL OF THEM are vulnerable of propagand becuase they do not value the life of my family. Maybe they do, but there is no moral objection, as there is in every other religion. Its not a matter of whether its ok to kill me. Its a matter of whether or not you can get away with it.

[JeremiahGateFan]

Irrelevant.

Either way it supports my argument.

No it doesn't, because Moses put those laws down as a code of conduct for the Hebrews. It was not meant for us, and it was not made by God. It was made by Moses.

[JeremiahGateFan]

Yes, and the same five books of the Torah happen to appear in your Bible as well. So this:

is a lie.

No....my church recognizes that these are laws of Moses for his people. They were not made by God there fore they are not for Us. They were for a people who already good in order to keep them from becoming what WE are today.

[Illuminatus]

No....my church recognizes that these are laws of Moses for his people. They were not made by God there fore they are not for Us. They were for a people who already good in order to keep them from becoming what WE are today.

The majority of Muslims recognise that commands to kill all infidels in the Koran where the laws of Mohammed (pbuh) for his people to deal with the 360 pagan tribes who were at war with Islam at the time. They no longer apply, Islam only permits fighting non-Muslims in self defense:

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou also incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth all things" - Quran 8:61

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers." - Quran 2:193

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them) - Quran 15:2-3

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine." Quran - 109:1-6

"If any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people." Quran 5:32

[JeremiahGateFan]

I thought you are the people of Mohhamed. And even if your not. The commandment is KILL ALL INFEDELS. kill-to make die all-the whole number of infedels-someone who does not believe in what the speaker considers to be the true religion
So the commandment says: Make the whole number of people who do not believe in my religion die.
It is not specific to any group.
It is also not for any specific group.
These are words of the founder of your religion and yet you say that they are not meant for you. That would be like a Christian saying that Jesus wasn't talking to Him when he said to love thy neighbor.
Did you even read the First post, I expected you to say something about that.
If that's what the Koran says, then the Koran Contradicts itself.

[Panthrophile]

The majority of Muslims recognise that commands to kill all infidels in the Koran where the laws of Mohammed (pbuh) for his people to deal with the 360 pagan tribes who were at war with Islam at the time. They no longer apply, Islam only permits fighting non-Muslims in self defense:

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou also incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth all things" - Quran 8:61

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers." - Quran 2:193

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them) - Quran 15:2-3

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine." Quran - 109:1-6

"If any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people." Quran 5:32
FTW.

And also,
http://members.aol.com/atamas/impaler.jpg

[Krovisser]

ooh, Vlad the Impaler.

[Illuminatus]

I thought you are the people of Mohhamed. And even if your not. The commandment is KILL ALL INFEDELS. kill-to make die all-the whole number of infedels-someone who does not believe in what the speaker considers to be the true religion
So the commandment says: Make the whole number of people who do not believe in my religion die.


No, it says no such thing. You are taking the Koran out of context, the only tiem the Koran says to 'kill all believers' is in specific instances at the time:

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful"


It is not specific to any group.
It is also not for any specific group.


Yes it is, it's in reference to the pagan tribes. Islam considers Jews/Christians People Of The Book, and followers of Allah:

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve - Quran 2:62


These are words of the founder of your religion and yet you say that they are not meant for you. That would be like a Christian saying that Jesus wasn't talking to Him when he said to love thy neighbor.
Did you even read the First post, I expected you to say something about that.
If that's what the Koran says, then the Koran Contradicts itself.

They were ment for the people at the time who were dealing with the pagan tribes. Maybe you didn't read my post.

[JeremiahGateFan]

Funny, because I wonder how many Christians would consider themselves followers of Allah.
If they consider Jews followers of Allah, they are stupid. The Muslims and the Jews have been at war for possesion of the holy land for centuries.
I did read your post. Nothing you quoted from the Quran said that he was talking about a specific. He still said KILL ALL INFELDELS. And the only thing that you have to object to that is the date in which it was written. This passage is to vauge to be interpreted either way. Whether he was talking about ALL INFEDELS or 360 tribes of them, there's no way to know. And there's no evidence either way. Because, If he was talking about All Infedels, he would of said All Infedels. And while it does seem a tad unwise for a "prophet" to write All infedels when he meant 360 tribes of them, it is concievable.

[Illuminatus]

Funny, because I wonder how many Christians would consider themselves followers of Allah.
If they consider Jews followers of Allah, they are stupid. The Muslims and the Jews have been at war for possesion of the holy land for centuries.
I did read your post. Nothing you quoted from the Quran said that he was talking about a specific. He still said KILL ALL INFELDELS. And the only thing that you have to object to that is the date in which it was written. This passage is to vauge to be interpreted either way. Whether he was talking about ALL INFEDELS or 360 tribes of them, there's no way to know. And there's no evidence either way. Because, If he was talking about All Infedels, he would of said All Infedels. And while it does seem a tad unwise for a "prophet" to write All infedels when he meant 360 tribes of them, it is concievable.

Context:

Chapter 9

[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
[9.2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.
[9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.
[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

It's quite obvious to anyone that 'kill the idolators' is from a specific announcement at a specific time to a specific grop of muslims in referece to a specfic group of idolators.

Funny how there's no such context to Leviticus or Deutronomy, yet you allow Christians to ignore it's commands.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, you're just making excuses for your hatred of Islam and you hypocritically do not apply these excuses to other religions.

[JeremiahGateFan]

Well, I admit that it seems the loophole in the Quran has been closed. However that doesn't change it's impact on the people. It sill excuses peoples violence. You can say that it was specific to that time, but it can be argued in either direction, thus justified violence.

[Illuminatus]

Well, I admit that it seems the loophole in the Quran has been closed. However that doesn't change it's impact on the people. It sill excuses peoples violence. You can say that it was specific to that time, but it can be argued in either direction, thus justified violence.

It is no more an excuse for violence than it is your excuse for hatred.

[JeremiahGateFan]

It does justify killing and I am not looking for justification for my hatred. If Chrisitanity is true, then it is wrong. I would not try to hold a belief that is contrary to something I used to really be in to, just so I can feel ethical about it.

[taylor09]

I hate Muslims.! you shouldnt say that you hate all muslims. not tryin to judge you, it's just that every person is diff no matter what race/ethnicity they are. Every Muslim is diff. You can't say that you hate them all unless you've evaluated every single one of their personalities and you think each one is a bad perosn. its wrong to do that.:(

[JeremiahGateFan]

I hate all that agree with the commandment,"Kill all infedels." Which, inspite Illuminatus's previous argument, Is a command to Kill every infedel(including me and you).